Crank trigger ignition - info and ramblings!

as title

I'd love a 123 dizzy but funds are tight, so I wondered if it's possible to get crank trigger ignition for sub £300 - I'm ok with waiting for bits to turn up on ebay and 'making' stuff work...

not sure where to even start or look? Megajolt seems dear


thoughts anyone?

or a rock solid dizzy that doesn't cost the earth.....

thanx in advance...

Darren

If you are prepared to get creative and make brackets and fittings then you can do a Mj for under £300 if you buy second hand.

I am just going through this myself, but I am buying new as I know the quality then. It is slightly cheaper to go TPS than MAP so bear this in mind. The EDIS and coil packs can be got from scrapyards, along with the TPS and crank trigger. For a trigger wheel, then Triggerwheels are ok or you could wait on Ebay for a complete instal to come up.

Crank trigger is always going to be more stable than a mechanical set up as there is no tolerances or wear, plus you can set the map to what your engine wants and not rely upon springs and vac retard etc.

Edited to say that is you have any contacts in the US then buying from Autosportlabs is slightly cheaper if you can avoid the import duty. Also there is a chap on the Samba that sells some neat brakets and triggerwheels with VR sensor.

jonboylaw said:

If you are prepared to get creative and make brackets and fittings then you can do a Mj for under £300 if you buy second hand.

I am just going through this myself, but I am buying new as I know the quality then. It is slightly cheaper to go TPS than MAP so bear this in mind. The EDIS and coil packs can be got from scrapyards, along with the TPS and crank trigger. For a trigger wheel, then Triggerwheels are ok or you could wait on Ebay for a complete instal to come up.

Crank trigger is always going to be more stable than a mechanical set up as there is no tolerances or wear, plus you can set the map to what your engine wants and not rely upon springs and vac retard etc.

Edited to say that is you have any contacts in the US then buying from Autosportlabs is slightly cheaper if you can avoid the import duty. Also there is a chap on the Samba that sells some neat brakets and triggerwheels with VR sensor.

Click to expand...

I do have a contact in the states, how on earth do you do TPS on Dells - I'll look into it unless you know the answer, the thing is I'm convinced dizzyless is the way to go so my only alternative is the 123 which is very solid but still a dizzy and expensive....

pm me some more details mate....

I think you can use a TPS off a rover with a little home made bracket, the TPS attaches to the spindle on the rear of the carb, will try to dig out the info I found elsewhere.

That is correct, you need to make an adapter that screws onto the spindle and has a flat side to fit inside the TPC. I think Emerald were selling these a while ago and I may have one about somewhere.
I am going MAP myself, will be drilling and tapping the manifold for the VAC.

Below are some photos from my Caterham TPS instal.








The tab is used to lock the spindle as you screw the adapter on, it should be left in place below the adapter. If you try and lock the spindle at the far end you will end up twisting the spindle and damaging the carb.

jonboylaw said:

That is correct, you need to make an adapter that screws onto the spindle and has a flat side to fit inside the TPC. I think Emerald were selling these a while ago and I may have one about somewhere.
I am going MAP myself, will be drilling and tapping the manifold for the VAC.

Below are some photos from my Caterham TPS instal.








The tab is used to lock the spindle as you screw the adapter on, it should be left in place below the adapter. If you try and lock the spindle at the far end you will end up twisting the spindle and damaging the carb.

Click to expand...

nice...I was also hoping to do MAP, as that is supposed to be better at understanding whats going on in the engine...I'm really bouyed up by this...
My dizzy is ok but has usual scatter, so its worn, I could buy a decent svda but thats a big chunk out of where I want to end up..if I flog my msd 6AL which I won't need with this setup, I could be able to get there for reasonable outlay.
Jonboy did you consider coil on plug?

Loxy any other info is greatly recieved - need to get that stuff off you too at some point!

I did consider COP but decided to go with the EDIS as i was familiar with it and also you get limp mode if the MJ buggers up.
I have just spent the last 4 hours on my loom, just soldering connectors and shrink wrap to make everything nice and pro looking.
Today I ordered the VAC hose and some barbs, plus a 1/8th NPT tap for the manifolds

What is your engine spec? it would be nice to share maps and experiences.

When I did the Caterham the dizzy on there was a bit like a switch, only Mech advance and not at all smooth. Fitting the MJ gave a huge boost to low down torque and the car was much more drivable and also gave an increase in economy.

I am focusing on the 1000- 3000 rpm range to maximize torque and smoothness. This will all go on a 1955cc with dual 36Dells (30 Chokes).

I plan to use a BMD Serpentine belt system and bought to TR and sensor/bracket from Mario ( http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1000726 and will machine the pulley to mount the TR. It looks a bit tight so I will be just putting a grove and then using some industrial epoxy to mount it.

For wiring I used polevolt, they even have the coil pack connector http://www.polevolt.co.uk/acatalog/info_4564.html


You will need an old Dizzy to keep the dizzy drive shaft and washers in place, else you could knacker your cam drive and bottom end.

currently my engine is a 1745 so - 76mm x 85.5, I do want to go to 1955 at some point. I also was considering FI, but that just seems a bridge too far in terms of maps and stuff...is this why you chose a MJ rather than MS?

I have lots of dizzy's as you know could you not just remove the dizzy drive?

trigger wheels do an aircooled kit minus the edis module for 275inc, so that seems ok to me, I am being a numpty but why is MAP dearer? the ECU has it built in? if you go TPS you need to source one, I have a tap already for the servo - which I may just ditch as I think it's causing me issues mentioned on my other thread.

I like the stealth pulleys with the ring welded -wonder if he balances them - mine is balanced throughout by John Maher

edited to add - the microsquirt with external MAP sensor looks like a possible, as I have an LC1 and I *think* the microsquirt can monitor afr through the tuner studio, obviously wouldn't be able to adjust fueling...

thanks

I am familiar with the MJ, but did consider the MS, but like you it seemed a bit of over kill.

I had considered removing the dizzy drive, but then if I ever want to sell the engine in the future I may want to put a dizzy back in...So just use one of your many bodies

The MAP sensor is installed on the board, in a TPS based system they do not put the MAP sensor on the MJ board and you can source a second hand TPS quite cheaply. Plus in the MAP you need the extra fittings for the Vac hose and possibly a small reservoir to sort out any pulsing...

I doubt the pulleys are balanced, but that is easy to get done.

I don't the the Microsquirt gets you anything over the MJ for ignition only. LC1 will only tell you how your fueling is, nothing to do with timing and should just be a set-up measurement as you are not gonig FI then there is no closed loop tuning. For me, I know the MJ and will get that working. If all is good and I want to move to FI in the future then I can whip it out and replace with MS and go up that learning curve

Jon

Cheers Jonny
I'll take my dizzy drive out I think, will want to keep my engine or it'll go with the bus if I ever had to sell.

It was just trigger wheels don't add anything if you choose tps or map, I thought the tps version might be cheaper? Map is the way to go though...
What I meant re lc1 was the function it performs is available in the ms, so I was thinking it might possible to hook up wideband and afr meter to it and sell the lc1, so that's where the ms future proofs me a little it'll do aircooled injection easily, do the timing/ignition I need now, and possibly let me hook an afr into it too
?

Go ahead with the Mircosquirt and I will follow your learning curve
As i have bought all the stuff, it is too late to change now, but would be handy having someone doing the same thing at the same time so you can bounce ideas off.

The MJ is $17 cheaper without the MAP sensor when you order from the US. I think TR take the pi55 with their pricing a bit. If you do import, you may get hit for duty.
My laptop is up and running and I can now talk to the MJ/E controller.. Yay !

apols my post was beer laden after moving house - I'm going to spec from the states - my mate can buy it and post on but he'll pay 10% sales tax...

if the MS is lots dearer then I'll go with the MJ...

well done on the comms - how long do you think before you can road test?

And here is another beer laden post.. I plan to put the trigger wheel on the bmd pulley, and that well be on the new engine that Laurie Pettitt its building for me, so about December. The loom is 90% complete and looking good, now just got to fit it in the engine bay. I may get a trigger wheel from TW on the 1600 just to set it up but we are all systems go. Been working on the base map and am getting there.

Keeping an eye on this as I start to think about fuel injection

Why do you want to make it really difficult?? What's wrong with a normal distributor?? What have you done to your engine that warrants this kind of ignition system??

I rave about the Accuspark SVDA electronic distributor because it has made a difference to my bus. I'm as tight as they come when it comes
to unessassary spending. As for £60 it's money we'll spent but some of these bits out there just seem pointless and OTT for the hell of it.


Sent from my iLife4 suite of applications.

What makes it worth while?
Timing set for your engine, not a generic curve will deliver more power, more torque, better economy, cooler temps.
Also being crank fired there is no mechanical parts to wear and degrade over time, no points, no dodgy rotor arms, modern coils with fatter spark, and the knowledge that once it is set up it will remain rock solid.

If you then make changes to your engine you can then tune the timing again.

Why would you not want to do this?

/\ /\ /\
WHS :lol:

seriously - the SVDA might be ok when new but I bet you get timing scatter even now, the 123 dizzy is prob amongst the best dizzy in terms of rock solid timing but is around £350 - so I figured if I could get the same result spending less then all good.
I perhaps should have made that part more obvious - I was always looking to spend on the ignition...

Plus depending on the hardware you choose to do the spark it might just do the injection if you choose to do that to.

I have balanced my engine to an inch of it's life, I have spent a lot on it and just want to get the most out of it, rock solid timing that I can adjust if needed on a very finite basis is very good for me.

My only query [to Jon I guess?] is how do you replicate the vac advance characteristics - I assume in the map? but the vac is for engine load...think I have confused myself as I guess this is what the MAP sensor helps decide?

Ha ha....
Yup, it is the MAP sensor, and a 10x10 array of timing advances.
Basically for each rev bin you put the advance, then do the same for each load bin. The load is calculate by the advance, so WOT will be low vacuum as seen by the system, and off throttle overrun will be high vacuum. You can then put the advance for the load bins in, but this is where you need to spend the time to tune it on a rolling road, unless you put someone in the back on the buss with a laptop and take them for a spin.


Edit to say The VAC is mapped differently on the MJ to a Dizzy as the dizzy uses a ported Vac take-off that will not make sense to the Megajolt. You need to use a manifold Vac take off.

8)

makes sense - although sounds daunting - I guess there's some starter maps out there already for our vehicles - I have seen them for others...

I'll let you have mine when it is done, just guessing at the moment. the MJ comes with a pretty safe starter map.

Also remember to leave margin in your maps for temp differences, so back of a degree or two to allow for hot running.